Episode Transcript
[00:00:16] Speaker A: Hello, friends, and welcome back again to another edition of Conservation Stories. This is Tillery Timmins Sims. I'm your host of Conservation Stories, which is a podcast brought to you by the Sand Hill Area Research association, or Sarah, as we like to call it. And I am excited to bring to you a guest that Lacy and I have met through the cotton industry and her name is Liz Hirschfield. Liz, we met you through connection, like J. Crew madewell event and that kind of thing. And so I, you know, they invested some money in the restoration Apply is here, which is really cool and I'm really glad you're here because lots of changes happening, agriculture right now, but in the United States, but not necessarily globally. I want to talk to you about all things, quote, unquote, un sustainable or as you have down here under your signature line, greenish.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:01:14] Speaker A: So tell us a little bit about, about you, your background and kind of what you do.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Great. So glad to be here. Thanks for having me, Tillery.
So I am going to age myself. I've been in the fashion industry for 30 years. I started off production, product development, merchandising, eventually, you know, oversaw the full supply chain. So everything from working with designers to developing products to working with suppliers offshore and in the United States to get that product made, like managing the quality, the business, the shipping, like all of that. Right. And, you know, through about, I would say, 20 years into my career. So about 10 years ago, I got really passionate and immersed in sustainability. It was right around when Paris Climate Accord was signed. And that was when the fashion industry really took a big step forward and said, we're going to, we're going to do something about this. Like we're the second most polluting industry of oil and gas. And I was really fortunate to be a great company. At the time I was working, I'd worked for a startup for 10 years called Bonobos and we were acquired by Walmart and they had an amazing sustainability team and so just really in the right place, the right time to kind of be diving in and become an expert. And that transitioned into me ended up moving on to J. Crew Group and overseeing sustainability for all those brands as well as production and product development. Madewell. And that's where we met because I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to implement a program that I had actually concepted many years prior with Larrea Pepper around how we could help support growers in the United States, cotton growers transitioning to sustainable farming practices. And we were able to implement that program. I think we had like 30 some odd farmers, you guys, you know, Lacy, you guys were one of them. And then we got really passionate about water and how it was actually on a visit to Texas, where it was in the middle of, like, one of the worst drought years, and we were doing a bunch of work on water in Asia because, like, we wanted to really focus on the areas that we had the most production. And then I thought to myself, why aren't we doing something here? Right? Like, we need to be doing something here. And that's where the playas came up. And so it's been such a pleasure to work with you guys. And I left the company a little over a year ago and started my business Greenish. The idea behind the name is really about meeting folks where they are.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: And I think that the journey for me with working with growers was, you know, we went in with this idea of how we wanted things to be and really then starting to understand what it means to grow cotton and what it means in all the different regions and how we could actually develop a program that worked for everyone.
And that's really what the focus of the business is. It's supply chain and sustainability and helping folks, you know, do whatever they need to do, whether it's adjust their sourcing strategy because they're too heavy in China, implement, you know, sustainability strategies, be compliant with legislation, all of that stuff.
[00:03:54] Speaker A: So, yeah, that is. That's. It's interesting to me, you know, Lacey Lacy has taken part in that program for several years now, and I've been watching her, you know, go through that certification process. And it's a little irksome, to be truthful.
[00:04:09] Speaker B: I know.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: So it's like how someone in the middle here is making all the money, you know, and so we, you know, trying to figure out, how do you improve this process and make sure that farmers and. And these brands get to build a relationship, you know, because I mean, to me, that is the piece that will make the difference is if you are, you know, in a. In a relationship with someone, like, how can that farmer trust that this organization's not going to just disappear and not going to do anything, you know, in, you know, or people are going to be gone and the people, you know, have been, you know, misplaced, displaced and, you know, so you. Bigger. These bigger bands, you need. You need the people that are way up there, you know what I mean? To be knowing the people that are way down here on the farm, you know, and making that.
And it makes a big difference because I know that when we tell people this restoration for These supplies is being paid for by Blue Jean Company. Like, what? Why? Because they. They know what the risk is that, like this, this is a supply chain risk for them. And they know they. They need to be investing in. In our region. They know how much cotton we supply you, you know, and it makes a big difference when the people on our end that we're wanting to bring into these, you know, conservation ideas know that, you know, the people on your end are the ones that are supporting it. It makes a big impact. And that's why I keep saying, we need a sign. We need a billboard that says, why does, you know, J. Crew care about Playa Lakes?
[00:05:43] Speaker B: You know, I think. I think it's interesting because you brought up the point of just, like, how getting that direct connection. And honestly, that all came about from. With a trip to Texas and meeting you guys and me and I'd met Lacy before, but, like, going to the farm, understanding and like, hearing that light bulb was like, what are we doing? We have to help with the water situation here. And so I think that that's something that's so important that you can't.
[00:06:06] Speaker A: Right. You know that. Yes. And that's. That. That is something that we still. We've kind of put on the back burner, but would still love to pursue that.
Ag dialogues, you know, a conference where, you know, we get to bring folks in from across the supply chain.
Meals and tellers and, and do what. What you're talking about, you know, showcase. But not just that, but provide like, hey, what is it? What does soil health actually mean?
And also, hey, we have a language barrier. When you talk to people in our culture, this is what this word means to them, you know, and. And hares, like, don't. Don't treat people on the farm like they're stupid, you know, and vice versa, like, hey, these people are coming to see you. And this is a great opportunity for us to get out of our own little world and step into a bigger world and find commonality with the people that are our consumers.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: I couldn't agree more. And the thing. One of the things for me when I first visited and actually first started talking to cotton growers in the US about this program was the realization that you all have been implementing these very sustainable practices for years.
The United States is. The cotton industry is kind of just naturally sustainable, out of need, right? That you see climate change, you know, what's going on with soil health. And, you know, when we were implementing this program, you, you know, we talked about. We'll talk about the Certification process. We needed a certification, and so we brought it there, but you guys were already doing everything. You just needed to get certified, you know, and so I think that's something that people don't know and that don't understand, you know, that I think the, the US Grower is very well and informed and very, very much looking at their land because that's, that's your life.
[00:07:47] Speaker A: Right? Right.
[00:07:47] Speaker B: Like you're handing that down generationally and yeah, it's very important.
[00:07:52] Speaker A: I remember, you know, when there was someone here from the Kiss the Ground initiative, and she was like, this has been nothing like we expected. Like, we, we are like, well, we're. We're expecting people to like, be, you know, not. Not know about soil health or I could be able to like, quote, like teach people how to do things. We came here with people already doing these things, and then we thought, well, we'll go, we'll help with like, you know, labor and make sure, you know, like, people like labor are being treated well. And then she's like, we didn't realize, like, these people, like work for you for years are basically their family. And she was like, we didn't. There really has been nothing for us to do in that area, you know, which I could come up with a few good ideas, but I mean, not because people are being. Treating bad, but just because of the needs, you know, and anyway. But I think that's something that's, that's encouraging for me to hear because, you know, we, we really do care about these things and we may not call it the same thing. And, and over the last four previous, in the previous administration, everything old got, just, just got a new name. And so it really wasn't any kind of new ideas.
It was just trying to get people to implement some of these older ideas that maybe, you know, some people maybe have just been reluctant to, you know, implement. So tell me about why. Why do companies need a certification?
[00:09:09] Speaker B: You know, and I know this is such. A. Certifications are such a problem because everyone has like, certificate. They, like, overloaded with certification, they're exhausted. And it's not just farmers, it's factories, it's mill, it's everyone. Right. The reason why you need a certification is in order for brands to speak about anything to do with the product that might be sustainable or have a claim associated with, has to be certified by a third party. It cannot be you telling me you did this and me saying, this is why this is what it is.
And so it's all about regulation and it's about, you know, if you want to talk about the product having these attributes or claimings, you have to have the certification to back it up. And that's the biggest issue.
And so there's, there's definitely like fatigue in the industry for sure. And they're not easy and they're not. The folks that run them don't totally understand what they're doing sometimes. I know this well.
[00:10:02] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's policy driven, basically.
[00:10:04] Speaker B: Yeah. 100.
[00:10:06] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Because you can, if you could. You, you know, there is NGOs and folks all over the place that just like look, like scour websites and look for things and then point out the thing that's wrong and then try to get the proof and then sue you if you don't have it. And so it's like companies are very like, your legal teams are all over you being like, you must have the information to back this up if you're going to say it.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: So what kind of information do they want? Is it always, Is it different or is pretty much everybody in the cotton and specifically in cotton, like, are people looking for the exact same information or do we have different standards?
[00:10:40] Speaker B: You know, it's the same standard. So it's like we're talking about regenerative. A certification. A regenerative certification. What does that mean?
[00:10:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:47] Speaker B: And then who is that party that's going in and saying, yes, that farmer did these things and yes, they got these results. That's, that's what they're doing. Right. And then they're providing that data and it's a third party that's not associated with me and it's not associated with you. So there's no way that they could be biased or be like giving information that was inaccurate. Right. But there's a million, you know, there are so many other things. If it's soil health, like you're claiming carbon savings, you have to have someone who's validating that that's not you and that's not the farmer. Right. And so that's what, that's what the requirements are. And it's really strict here in the US and really strict in Europe. Like, really strict.
[00:11:24] Speaker A: We, we just got back from spending a week with a project that's, that's kind of, it's, well, it's new projects. It's just gotten off the ground. And it is a NASA project where NASA is working directly with farmers to help them utilize the data that they, their taxes have already paid for. Oh, and super curious if, hey, if that data is, is available and it's it's NASA data. It's not, you know, it's not from an ngo, it's not from some other third party or anything. It's, it's coming from the satellites. And there are ways that they can, they can tell now the health of a crop. They can tell protein counts in some crops from space.
Oh yeah. And they're like, they're like really close to being able to release like what is your soil moisture like at the root zone. So I mean that is, that would be so huge. So they're like their new satellites aren't just, you know, getting to the ground, they're going under the ground and they're, you know, moving from. I think it's a 30, 30 meter space and trying to go to 10 meter space or something. Like, it's like, it's unbelievable what's happening, you know, and so I, I'm curious, like, is, is there a potential for, you know, for us to be able to craft something like that?
[00:12:50] Speaker B: I mean, to me that sounds really interesting. There would have to be a lot of like, stipulations around it and like how, you know what I mean, Like a process around it. But I think that's fascinating. Certainly it's coming from NASA. So who is going to, you know, not very, you know, who's gonna say that's not real.
[00:13:04] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:13:06] Speaker B: And I think there probably has to be a way. I mean, some of this legislation that's going on has been like, okay, you have your certification and now you have to get an, an auditor to like confirm that that's real, like a KPMG or something. So they might want like something like that for the brand to just be like, yes, this information is real, so no one could fake it or falsify it. Right. But I think it would be. That's fascinating. That could be really interesting.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: I think so too. And I think, you know, I know that like finding a way to like consolidate, you know, some of this certification so that you're, you know, maybe it's not, you're not having to certify for four different kinds of certifications and, and then that takes the farmers paying for that, you know, and then there's got to be a way to make it.
[00:13:50] Speaker B: Work better and also doing all the work. Right. And I think it's like the re entry of the same information over and over again. I thought when I was going through this guy, I'm like, I think a brilliant idea would be like a software that basically just pulls all your data into one place and it spits it out into every single certificate certifying body. So you only need to do it once. Like, I think I, I need someone to help me start that business. But no, I think 100%, because it's, it's a huge amount of pressure on the farmer and that costs money, costs money for the certification. It costs money and time to do the work. And I think if there's an alternative that could be demonstrated and proven and approved by like the government, the ftc, whatever that is that it could use, that would be wonderful.
[00:14:29] Speaker A: Right, and make it easier for everyone. Exactly. And you know, I mean, they're, they can tell you like how much water you used because they can test like how much groundwater is being used. It's, it's, it's unbelievable what they can do and what they can verify. And so I'm like, if we find, if we can tell them, hey, these are the things that we need verified, could they be the verifier of these things? You know what I'm saying? Like, we need to know.
Can you look at aerial shots for, you know, whatever days to look at like pesticides or. I mean, there's, there's, they can tell you like, they can predict like pest pressure.
So I mean, it's, it really is the time to like, start thinking about those things and how to utilize something that we already have, you know, and maybe bring in another agency to say this, is this how it's going to be verified?
[00:15:23] Speaker B: You know, I think that, I think that's amazing. And if it's like something they can do and they want to provide that service, they're able to do it. Yeah, I mean, it's like, it sounds like they can kind of get almost any kind of information that you need. And it would really be just taking down those certifications and what are those requirements and be like, can you give us this?
[00:15:38] Speaker A: Exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah. And just figuring out what that list is and then, you know, then the farmer is able to work directly with them, which is, that's really the goal of this program is for NASA to begin working directly with the farmers and making this information that farmers have already paid for as accessible as possible to them. And how do they use it to further, to further research.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: I had no idea NASA was doing things like that.
[00:16:04] Speaker A: Well, it's pretty, it's pretty new. It's been going on for about two years. So that NASA Harvest was a global agricultural initiative. And then they kind of honed in on the US and said, okay, let's, how could we like beef this up for agriculture in the US and so one of the NASA harvesters, one of the directors of that, submitted a plan with a guy that was in Kansas at the time and he had been working very closely with a farmer on research. Like they are just really, really good friends. And so that's kind of the model that they're rolling out is a relationship based research development where the researcher and the farmer are really connected.
They understand, you know, really well the needs and they are able to move things together. And then NASA's providing all the data. So what we're looking for on the farm side is like, you need it. We need to be able to calibrate that. This data that's coming down. Okay, we, we need to know from, from the ground up, like what, what we're seeing down here isn't matching what we're seeing here. And so there's some, you know, those, those kind of projects are, are ongoing right now through this, this program. So in fact we released maybe two or three weeks ago we released the podcast.
So if you should go listen to it, Liz and I definitely will. If you haven't listened to it, listeners, you should go back. It is something about Space is in the title and I think it's, I don't know what number episode it is, but we'll, we'll put a link in it, in the notes so that people can go back and, and catch that. So.
[00:17:44] Speaker B: Yeah, that's fascinating. I love it. I think that's great. Be amazing.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. Because, you know, the, the more we can make it where it's less expensive, you know, then like that it's less expensive for the brands, it's less expensive for the farmer, you know. And I mean, I know I was visiting with a woman that's a cotton farmer and she was saying like, I'm not participating next year in this such and such program because I literally pay three quarters of what I get in a. In the bonus is going to pay for my certification.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:18:17] Speaker A: And so she's like, I'm not participating anymore. Like, it's not, it's not worth my time, you know. And so like. Yeah, so how like addressing, you know, that idea and I know textile exchange is, you know, kind of, they're just kind of like, let's set it, set like a general standards. But I'm curious as to why, you know, we have that for Organixx. The USDA has that certification process for Organixx.
And do you see any movement towards the USDA creating a certification that these brands need.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: I mean, I think that would be wonderful because they're already involved in it. Right. It makes perfect sense. But you know, you got like that got certification. It's, it's got a real hold on things. Right. And so I, I think you also then begs the question of like, are you then putting folks out of business doing that? But it also is like, I think it's a valid point. And if the USDA is already already classifying the cotton, they're already doing the work, like, why wouldn't they come up with this is certified USDA organic.
[00:19:21] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:22] Speaker B: You know?
[00:19:22] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and I mean that's, you do have to get that from the usda. Yeah, I mean, you can get that label from them, but it, I mean they, they come out and check and do all the certifying and stuff for it. So for.
Can you go back, you, you referenced got certification. So can you, can you give us a little education on that, what that is?
[00:19:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's this organic certification. It's been around for years. And it's really the certification that everyone uses.
There's another one called ocs. It's like less. But GOTS is very strict. Strict, obviously, and it's just really well known and it' prevalent used in, I would say our industry when we're talking about organic. And it, I think the customer recognizes it and they have a strict process. And you know, you can't call, let's say you're, you're making a cotton skirt and you're using certified organic cotton. You can't call that skirt organic unless the full supply chain is certified. So goths will go into like your facility, your factories, the mills, the spinners, and then also your like fulfillment centers and your whole company and everyone gets certified. Then you can call it organic. And if you don't do that and you have the cotton, then you can just say it's made with, you know, certified organic cotton, which is just fine also. So I think GOTS also has that piece of it where they do the whole supply chain. And a lot of these certifications do do that also. Most of them do because some people want to call the product the thing. And you can't do that without everything. Although I, I mean, I'm going to be telling you, I, I question that because I'm like, do you. Who cares if they call the product organic? Like, the cotton's organic. Why can't you say it's made with organic cotton? You know, it doesn't change the process.
Like when the Spinner and the Miller certified, it's not like they're not using synthetic dyes. They are, you know, and so it's not like it changes the processing at all. But just make sure that it's been segregated properly and all of that. So I don't know, like, I question it sometimes and I think it's not really necessary. But that to me would be the only maybe whole hold up, you know, and, but Gotz is recognized. It's been around for years.
I think people, people, the consumer recognizes it and it's something that, you know, obviously brands want to be able to say and like that, that makes it valid when they have that sort of thing.
[00:21:35] Speaker A: Well, and I mean, like, I will just tell you, I'm not, I guess, a savvy consumer, but like, I probably wouldn't have recognized it, you know, until like just in the last year or so been learning about these certifications, you know, and so I've heard the term, you know what I mean? And I've wondered what does that mean? You know what I mean? So I don't know. I, I do wonder. Be interesting to see like how many consumers do recognize that.
Are consumers savvier than me? Because I am.
[00:22:03] Speaker B: Right. No, it's true. I mean they just see it and they know. I, I think they do. But of course I'm in the industry. Goth is a non profit, by the way. And so most of these certification bodies are non profit, so they are privately held, but they're nonprofits.
[00:22:14] Speaker A: So that's very interesting because I was having this conversation with someone because that, that's part of one of the things that Lacy and that prompted Lacy and I to start to, to rebrand her nonprofit and get going again is because we're like, how do you just need a pass through? You just need a non profit, profit pass through like here, you know, but then I've, I've, when I've submitted that idea, you know, I've had people say, no, no, no, it can't be that. It can't be. You can't be a, it can't be, you know, a non profit. It has to be. And I think probably part of it is like, it can't be your nonprofit because your nonprofit is a farmer nonprofit. It has to be a, a nonprofit that has, you know, no, I guess, no stake in the game, you know.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: Right, exactly. And I think, yeah, I agree, like, they're not, there's not like a, a benefit that they're.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: Right. Well, And I wonder too, like, you know, like every region is so different. Like what, you know, why don't we have a very specific certification just for our region, you know, that says, hey, this is, you know, what you're looking at. And when you get it from here, it's. It's from this area. Because what we're doing, we may use way less pesticides sides than, you know, somewhere where there's a lot more, you know, attractive environment for insects than we are.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I mean, that's definitely true. I agree. You know, so it is hard to have like a one size fits all. I think that's the thing what we liked around about regenerative because I felt like it was like a list of options versus like you can only do this and you can't do this. But it was more about what you can do versus what you can't do.
[00:23:55] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:23:56] Speaker B: So I think that like sometimes these certifications are so strict that it turns people off. And we, when we, when we went on the journey of starting to talk to farmers about this program, we started off with organic and they were like, yeah, no.
[00:24:08] Speaker A: Yes, that's right.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: Then we started learning about regenerative and they were like, yes. And so we understood that like it was just too restrictive and they weren't going to do it. Like, there's a farmer that we worked with in California and they also farm food and they're like, we cannot. And like, you know, part of the regenerative is like, oh, you can bring, you know, livestock onto your land and that's really helpful for the soil, all that stuff. He's like, I can't even my dog on the land if I. I would totally mess with my organic certification for the food, you know, so it's like, it's just like so interesting, you know, the difference. So.
[00:24:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Well, and a lot of it too. You know, it's like the way it's marketed and that kind of thing makes a lot of difference what consumers know and what they don't know and what we have talked about this before on the Castle. We're not the best at like understanding consumers and knowing what they need to know and what they want.
[00:24:59] Speaker B: I agree. And I actually the reason why I look, I said that consumers recognize got. I think they do because just so widely used. But maybe that's just in my head. But one thing I will say is like talking about the certification is not for consumers. It's for policy. It's for like not getting called out by the FTC and Not getting sued to say like, oh, you're calling this organic, but you don't have, you can't prove it, you know, and so I think that if that wasn't there, then I'm not sure brands, brands would just say, oh, it's organic cotton. And the customer be like, oh, it's organic cotton. Great. You know, like.
[00:25:46] Speaker A: Today's episode is brought to you by EB and Stone with Clear Rock Farm and Ranch, part of the Clear Rock Realty Group in Lubbock, Texas. Evan understands west Texas land, agriculture and what it takes to buy and sell farms and ranches in our unique region. If you're ready to make your next move, trust someone who knows the lay of the land. Visit Evan at clearrockrealty.com serving Lubbock and the surrounding communities, Clear Rock Farms and Ranch, your partner on the planes.
I mean, I know a couple of years ago, what year was that? I mean there was a pretty big scandal in India.
[00:26:25] Speaker B: I know, with, with fraudulent. And I think it's a big problem in India just in general, unfortunately. That. And that's the thing. And so that's where like all these policies were instituted to stop like this greenwashing. But then you still have fraudulent things happening. So it's very difficult. Right. It doesn't guarantee it. I think it's particularly a problem organic in India for sure.
[00:26:47] Speaker A: Right, right. Yeah. Well, how, how are they addressing that? Because was that like a GOTS issue?
[00:26:57] Speaker B: It was. And it's interesting because they have independent like auditors go right to the facilities and stuff. And so they ended up doing an investigation and saying that they had rectified it. But then it kind of happened again like of things a couple few years later. And so I mean, I think that you have to be really careful in India. I mean it's just like, just, that's just how it is. And it's hard to verify everything. There's so many farms, they're really small and it's a really difficult to like validate it. And look, they're pieces of paper. Like you could, you could send. Give me a country of origin certificate and tell me this is real. And I don't know if you know. Sure it says it, but so the NASA thing is. Then go back to NASA and close it all. That's so fascinating because you could prove it, you know.
[00:27:36] Speaker A: Yes, yes, that's what I think so too. I think that's a, I think it's an idea to pursue. For sure. For sure. Yeah. So what does your day to day look like, for you. So let's just say you get a call from a brand like Tiller's Fashion House, and I want to. I don't even know what to tell you that I want. I'm so. I'm like. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't even know what it is, but I know that my investors are wanting something.
So tell me why.
Why do brands care about it? Number one, why do they have these goals? Because I ha. I mean, I feel like most corporations aren't dealing with the heart. Like, I just have a good heart, and I want to make sure. I mean, I do think there are some. But, like, for the most part, it's the bottom line. So something's pushing this button, you know, pushing them to move this. What's doing that? What's driving that?
Desire for the need for that.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think. I think it's.
Look, I'm going to be a little bit jaded here because I've been in the industry for so long and been not in sustainability the whole time. Right. And so when I got into sustainability, it was like this shiny new toy. Right. If there was a real and positive intent and people were really, really passionate about it and like, we're going to make a difference together.
But I also believe, because I've experienced it, that like, brands also saw it as an opportunity to market their product.
[00:29:09] Speaker A: Right.
[00:29:10] Speaker B: And to get more business. And the reality is sustainability does not sell clothing. It. So it doesn't. I mean, great product sells clothing. And then if you have all these amazing attributes or things that you're doing, it creates this brand loyalty and that customer will go back and buy again. Right. And so I think in the beginning, they. People set goals because they. The industry kind of held hands and was like, we have to do it. And they were inspired, excited, and they also were like, okay, we're doing this, right? We're going to make a difference. And, and, and then I think the newness kind of wore off a little bit, especially after the pandemic, and people got a little bit like, okay, this doesn't actually sell product. And it's not that it's not a important. But we're not going to talk about it as much anymore because. And, and a lot of folks don't. And there's some brands that are committed to it and do a really great job and have woven it into, like, who they are as an ethos with the brands that have. In the culture. Yeah. And, but. And most of them have it, and that's okay too. And they haven't walked back their goals. These brands, they just don't use it as much as a marketing tool. So. But they set the goals. And so you get a lot of flack if you're like, yeah, we're going to like not do that and anymore, you know. And I think we set goals that we knew were aggressive, but we did it on purpose because the industry did hold hands and say like, we have to sell, set really, really high goals because then if we get like 70% of the way there, we'll make more progress than if we set water down goals and get like 100% of the way there. And so everyone did that and then obviously we did it without knowing and then we started getting into it. Now we're all experts. We're like, yeah, that's going to be really hard to do. And so my view was always just like talk about it authentically and say like, this is what we're doing, we're not getting there quite fast enough. We're going to do so that's really why folks set goals. I don't think it was disingenuous. They were like excited, inspired, like we're going to make a difference, we can do this, we can impact the industry. And I think that as the years have gone on, people have realized it's really hard.
It's very hard.
[00:31:03] Speaker A: So has the momentum for esg, has that waned? Do you know what I mean? Like these corporations, like big, you know, holding companies that are needing those environmental, social and governance goals or some. Are you seeing some of that as it's kind of being pushed out currently?
[00:31:22] Speaker B: I think yes.
[00:31:23] Speaker A: But is that, is that, is that a. I was going to say is that, is that a global thing, the US thing?
[00:31:28] Speaker B: It's not in the EU at all. Yeah, yeah, they. And that consumer is much more savvy also, so. And much more focused on it.
But it also, because the customer doesn't. I mean they say they care and a lot of them care a lot and you're passionate about it, but they don't show it in their spending, in their purchase power. Right. They, you've got Sheen and all these like fast fashion brands. So it's like, you know, I also think some of it's education and like people don't know that they're buying things that are bad for the environment that never degrade and that you should buy cotton and natural fibers because that's the best. But so I think a little bit there is a waning of it, because a, it's not a marketing thing anymore. You're not going to sell product because of it. So you really are doing it because it's the right thing to do.
And then I think you see the real test of it. When business downtrends and they are, they start making less money. And that I think we'll see because we haven't seen.
It's been so up and down since the pandemic. Right. And I don't think we've seen. We'll see what happens with the economy in this next year or two. But if business really starts down, trending, then you're going to see the folks that are really committed to it that aren't.
I mean, you saw Nike. I mean, they laid off like 70% of their sustainability staff when they reorganized.
And it doesn't mean they're not doing it. They're just not doing it at the level that they were doing it before. Right. And so I think it's hard. And because my other thing too with Greenish is because I came from the business side, I also understand that like, when you're running a business, you're running it to make money and you can't.
If you're the most sustainable brand in the world but you're making no money, then that doesn't matter.
[00:32:59] Speaker A: It's not sustainable. Right, Exactly.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: No, it's not. And so you have to find that balance of like, what's the right thing that's still going to help make an impact, comply with legislation, but not push you over the ledge in terms of profitability. And so I think that's also something that you have to balance.
[00:33:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's, that is one of the things that, like, is really kind of a guiding point for us is that triple bottom line people, planet profits. You know, you have to have all of those things in consideration when you're, when you're deciding what direction you're going to take for sustainability, which is where that word came from is from that, from that whole economic model. So when you talk about like, I did not realize that that fashion is the second largest polluter. So what are you talking. I mean, when I think about pollution, I think about like, you know, piles of, of clothes. So I'm, I'm a huge, like, if I can get it, if I can get it resale, I'm. I'm doing it. You know, I'm a Goodwill shopper. I'm a, you know, so, so I'm aware of like, you know, the garbage and what we throw away. But Is are there other things from fashion that have to do with pollution?
[00:34:08] Speaker B: They definitely are. Really the most intensive thing is the processing of the fibers into yarn and then the dyeing into whatever colors you want to use and then making it into fabric. That's where it becomes very chemical intensive and very pesticide, not pesticide, very water intensive. Obviously you've got pesticides. We talk about that, but we know like, that's fine. But like.
And then you've all these synthetics that are derived from petroleum, from oil and gas, you know, and so it's just that whole. It's very energy intensive. Like there's just a lot that goes into it that, that makes it. And then, yes, you have all those products sitting in landfills everywhere. So.
But it's really like that process of making it into something that it's a really. The big kind of issue.
[00:34:52] Speaker A: How do companies like Sheen, how are they making money on volume? Just an enormous volume?
[00:34:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: Is that it?
[00:35:00] Speaker B: Yeah, they're making money on enormous volume. And they're buying like cheap stuff, like cheap product. Right. Like so, I mean, I don't. Look, I'm not an expert. I know Sheen well enough. I know that they have. My understanding is that they've kind of rehabilitated like a once kind of down trending manufacturing community in China, but they also kind of like control it. Right. And so they get the prices that they want. They get cheap fibers every. I mean, large majority synthetic. Synthetics are really.
[00:35:27] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: You know, they're cheap. They also have a high duty though. And so. But they're not volatile. Like the clothes market is. Right. Where you don't. Not sure one year to the next what the price is going to be.
But you know, and they're easy to make. And so I think that like, you know, when you're selling a bunch of stuff, you can take lower margins on it because you're selling so much of it.
[00:35:47] Speaker A: Right, right. So, yeah, so. And we're going to record here, but we're going to talk to Darren Abney about cotton and natural fiber and that kind of stuff. And so. And like, just because we live here, I'm not saying this, I just like really have become more aware, of course, when I'm with Lacey, you know, I have to tell her now. I know it's not cotton, but I bought it resale, so I saved it from the landfill.
But I have become way more aware. This is not something that I ever even thought I would ever care about. But when you see the pictures and just the Whole idea of, we had a girl from Poland here and we took her into Target and she, she just, she looked around, she looked at me and she said, why?
Like the dollar section. She's like, why? And I said, because what will we fill all the boxes in our garages with if we don't buy all this stuff? You know? And I'm like, I mean, I'm. I'm guilty as, as you know, and I think about how much we have so many storage buildings in, you know, facilities here, and I'm like, my goodness. We are, we are a purchasing culture and we have so many places to put it because we can spread out.
[00:37:03] Speaker B: We do. We like to consume things. We are over consumption. We like to consume things. Like, I agree, like, on the natural fiber thing and cotton particularly, like, obviously it's become very. A huge passion of mine, but most people don't know what the clothes are made of that they're wearing. I have found that out. And I even had. I was like, co host of the sustainability dinner in la and there was a. With this guy who's like the sustainability influencer, but it wasn't like a bunch of fashion brands. It was like a bunch of random different people, like, in the industry in different ways. And at the end of the dinner, he always asks everyone, what's your one ask? And I said, my one ask is to like, wear, like, buy cotton, wear natural fibers. And like, this guy was like, how do I even know? Like, where do I find that information? I'm like, it's in the product. He's like, it is. And I'm like, hey, you just have to look at the label. It's like law. Yeah. So I think there's an education piece of it.
[00:37:50] Speaker A: Wow. I always look even before. But I grew up on the cotton farm. Of course I always look.
[00:37:55] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:37:57] Speaker A: My goodness, that, that goes to this fact of ag does not understand the consumer. Like, that is so far removed for me to think that someone would not know that they were. That they're required to put a label on it. Wow. Yeah. We don't know. We don't know our consumer. Well, this has been super interesting and I hope that it's been as helpful to people that are listening because I know right now the industry's suffering just like ag is suffering is so, so, so terribly right now. And, you know, any extra way to be profitable is, you know, what people are looking for. And if there's a way for us to put, you know, those brands, you know, not even just for, for the sustainability side, but just for assurance of, of a supply chain. You know, like, you, you need, you need that. I mean, you don't want to lose this 70% of US cotton, right?
[00:38:54] Speaker B: No, you don't. And that, to me, is something that's really at risk between climate change, between the water situation, between just, like, what's going on in the industry, and it's something that I don't think people, like, really understand and it's very important and that we protect it.
[00:39:07] Speaker A: So I think so. And any way we can work together to make that happen, and maybe we can work together and pull off nag dialogues.
[00:39:14] Speaker B: I would love that.
[00:39:15] Speaker A: Yes. So we would, we would love to have you down again.
So great. Liz, thank you so much to. I really appreciate it. And friends, thanks for listening in to this episode of Conservation Stories. And I hope that you found this interesting. And I was definitely educated on lots of different things here that I vaguely knew about, but if you found it interesting and you like our podcast, would you please like and share it with your friends? That is very helpful to us and we will be looking forward to another conversation on next episode of Conservation Stories.
