Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign and welcome back to another episode of Conservation Stories. I'm your host, Hilary Timmins Sims. Conservation Stories is brought to you by the Sand Hill Area Research Association. Sarah. Sarah Conservation is interested in all things that have to do with our ecosystems, whether they are the environment or financial or anything that has to do with rural America. West Texas, eastern New Mexico.
We just are about a lot of things. That is because we have ADD and you can't beat it. I mean, hey, right, it's either a superpower or it is not.
So I'm excited today that we have Leah Doozy with us. I heard about Leah through a, a friend who heard you speak and she said this lady knows all the things about EPA and all the things about chemical regulation and all this stuff. And so I'm excited. We, we got together and visited for a while and I think that this is going to be such an interesting conversation because people are right now we just have this right, make America healthy again.
So people are looking at, you know, glyphosate, they're worried about atrazine, they're worried about these chemicals which many of them may not know that they're actually using them on their yards in, in really high concentration levels. So some people, they know what they are, they'd never touch them. But there's a process by which all of this goes through and I think it would be helpful to hear from you about your job. So start by telling us, kind of give us your background and tell us about your company.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: Great, thank you. It's wonderful to be here. I'm Leah Doozy. I work for Compliance Services International, a global regulatory and environmental strategy company. So we work with anything that's regulated. So whether that's agricultural chemicals or whether that's cosmetics in Europe. Right. So anything that's regulated in the U.S. predominantly agricultural.
[00:02:13] Speaker A: Okay. Okay.
[00:02:13] Speaker B: So my background is in agricultural economics. So kind of wonder how do you get from ag econ to pesticide regulation?
So I spent 15 years with USDA. I worked for NRCS, the Natural Resources Conservation Service in St. Paul, Minnesota. And then I moved to Auburn, Alabama, which is where I live now. And I worked for the Agricultural Research Service doing applied research and conservation systems. So looking at how cover crops, no till nutrient management, how those work in the system is to be able to manage, say herbicide resistant weeds or address other resource concerns like erosion and erosion, runoff, etc. So my background is in production agriculture. My dad's a farmer in Georgia.
So all of my knowledge is a combination of knowledge of growing up on A farm and how agriculture works in the southeast with a combination of education and economics. So, okay, professional experience, you got, you've.
[00:03:16] Speaker A: Got the perfect foundation for this. And what I love about that, you also worked in conservation, so people can know that like you, you've looked firsthand at the science and you've seen the science, you've seen the impact of chemical use, chemical use, probably in positive and negative ways.
And you've stood out in the middle of those fields where some of those things have been applied. And so I think you are perfect for the job that you have. Like, your whole experience has kind of just led to this.
[00:03:49] Speaker B: It is amazing how those two things have met. I think when I first started. I've been with CSI since 2017, and so I think I didn't really understand how those two worlds were going to collide in the way that they have. I was, I started out doing economics for CSI and then I progressed into doing mostly endangered species work. So really looking at how federal regulations work with the Endangered Species act as it relates to how pesticides are registered.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: So, so that's great. Yes.
[00:04:19] Speaker B: Strange world of how it all comes from.
[00:04:21] Speaker A: But what I love, though, is that you, I love that you have, have been exposed to both sides.
Like, and so I, that's why I feel like you are in such a great position for people to understand. Hey, you know, I've, I've been on the side to say, how is this chemical impacting our environment and working to protect the environment or the endangered species? And that's really what this whole, the whole idea of these regulations are about is how do we prevent harm?
And the, and how, how can we, but how can we also use what we have in a way. In fact, we've, we've mentioned this before, you know, like on fossil fuels, like the responsible use of something that is essential to our lives every day. Because without it, you and I would not be talking at this minute. You know, and, and we're, we are years away from transitioning completely away from fossil fuels. And we'll be looking at mining different resources for different types of, of energy.
And either way, whatever we do, whatever kind of energy we use, we're using something in the environment and we're putting something new in the environment. And it's important for us to be aware of, of the consequences as much as we can be. So let's do it like this. We're in real play.
I have a chemical and I figured this out in my garage.
And this, this thing, it, I swear to you I promise I'm the creator. It will is going to kill weeds, but it doesn't hurt microbial life. It doesn't hurt any. Like the microbes in the soil, they don't get hurt. And it's going to kill a weed. But like if a butterfly lands on it, it won't get sick. It's not going to matter.
So I've come to you and I have said, hello, here's my.
Here's my chemical.
And I would like to have this approved by epa. How do I do that?
[00:06:26] Speaker B: So from start to finish, to register a pesticide, pesticide takes anywhere around 11 years. Right.
[00:06:31] Speaker A: I might be dead by then.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: It can take a lot of years to get through that because it's the testing that the industry does for the person registering the product, plus it has to go through the EPA process. So all pesticides in the US Are regulated under two different regulations. The first one is the Federal Insecticide Fungicide Rodenticide Act. We call it ffra. That's what it stands for. So when people say ffra, it's the Federal Insecticide Fungicide Rodenticide Act. That is EPA governs the registration, the labeling, distribution, sale and use of pesticides in the U.S. okay.
And so that is the first way. The second way is under the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic act, which is actually EPA sets what's called maximum residue limits. So that is the amount of pesticide residue allowed on food or animal feed in the US and then fda, the Food and Drug Administration are the ones that enforce. That are regulated really under two ways. But my focus predominantly is in that fifth real world.
[00:07:35] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Where it's regular through epa, not necessarily in the human health food.
[00:07:39] Speaker A: Okay, okay.
[00:07:40] Speaker B: On the environmental side.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: Okay, okay. Okay. Because so I guess it's like it's regulated for environment and it's regulated for human.
[00:07:50] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: Consumption or use. Okay.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: And also groundwater. You know, there's a lot of. It's not just one thing. Right.
Number of different ways that they evaluate products before they are registered in the US and that's really important because there's a lot of testing that goes on. They have testing requirements, they have do biological evaluations, which is how they look at the product, how it's going to impact endangered species. That's my expertise. I have other people that work with us that do the other parts of the that.
But there's a lot of moving parts to how testified to registered. It's not just, oh, let me put in my application and we check the box and we move on.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: It takes years.
[00:08:32] Speaker A: It takes years. And so I've put in my application and I now need to do this testing.
So is it is I'm paying for testing and I'm doing the testing and then when it gets to epa, is EPA doing their own individual testing of this product, like replicating what I, what I have done?
Or, or is it that they are relying on the science that I'm providing them? Or do I completely misunderstand how things are working?
Because it looks like from your face you're like, oh, girl, you are so lost.
[00:09:12] Speaker B: I'm just thinking about the best way to answer it because I think that it's, it's not, it's, it's, it's not that simple. More complex than that, because in a lot of cases it's not the registrants doing the, the testing, it's laboratories doing. Sure.
[00:09:27] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:09:27] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:09:29] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. I'm so sorry, but yes, yes, I'm, I'm taking it to lab.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's, it's not, it's fairly complex and there's a whole list like you can go, EPA is very transparent parent. And what they require, it's all on their website.
Everything is listed. So they do have all that information out there and then they evaluate all those testing.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: So it has to be done by certain laboratories.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: Laboratories.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: There's requirements that go along with it.
[00:09:57] Speaker A: And, and I'm, as the, as the registrar, I'm paying for all of that to be done. Yes, yes. So, so if I, if I have something and am, am I first going to come to you and say, hey, obviously I don't know how this is done. Can you help me? Yes, that's, that's, that's like the first place I could come. Okay.
[00:10:18] Speaker B: So people who don't have their, their own in house expertise and registration as a company, we can help you.
[00:10:26] Speaker A: Okay. Okay, so that is not.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: Just. So we're clear, that is not my expertise.
[00:10:30] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:10:30] Speaker B: Not the person who does registration.
Like, I have colleagues that do that.
[00:10:35] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:10:36] Speaker B: For me, where I come in is saying, okay, how does the, like the label that they're putting forth, how does that meet the regulations as it relates to endangered species? What kind of mitigations need to go on it? How do we, so we help people get through the process of figuring out, okay, does how they're registering the product, does that meet the regulations that have been put forth by epa?
[00:11:02] Speaker A: Okay. And specifically the regulations. For you, it's specifically the regulations of how is it going to Impact endangered species.
[00:11:12] Speaker B: Yes. Yep.
[00:11:13] Speaker A: Okay. Interest. So like literally it's. So there's so many parts and pieces. You have to have like an expert for this regulation. An expert for this regulation. And, and for people that might be unfamiliar for, you know, chemical use, you look on the back, it's going to tell you at what degrees it should be outside. Like if it is hotter or colder than this, you should not spray. If, if the wind is blowing more than this, you should not spray. You should spray eggs close to the ground or you should not use this type of equipment when you're spraying. Like it's, it can be very instructive to. And what they're trying to do is mitigate any damage that they're aware can happen.
[00:12:00] Speaker B: Yes. And so there's language. So the label is the law. That's what we always say labels are. Labels are the law. They are a legal document.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: You have to follow your label.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: That doesn't matter if you're an, a farmer who's applying it on their field or you're a person applying it in your yard. You should be reading your label. The label is the law. It's what you should follow. When you apply that process product, it's going to have information about the right PPE or personal protection equipment that you should be wearing. It's going to have information about how you apply that product to limit off target, non target movement, whether that would be movement off where you're trying to apply it, whether that's in your yard or in an agricultural world or in right ways.
And so those are, all of that is listed. What's your application? Application rate is how much you should be applying per acre or per square foot.
That's going to include application methods. So maybe like, so for example, in agriculture maybe you can only apply it to ground where you're using conservation tillage or you know, so there may be limits on how you can use it, soil types, maybe you can only use it on certain soil types. So there's all these different pesticide labels are very long when you look at them for agriculture. And so there's a lot of different components that go into it. And all of that is based off the information that EPA has evaluated how those products are used in the field. And that scare because of epa, because the registration of pesticides are a federal action. They are required to consult under the Endangered Species Act. And that's really where the conversation has started changed since 2022. So prior to 2022, EPA was addressing ESA, but they were kind of Punting it a little bit. Right. They weren't doing the full analysis for every registration and they were getting sued. So EPA was.
[00:14:01] Speaker A: So EPA was literally kind of like not following the law, Is that what you're saying? They weren't. They were.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: They were. Yeah.
[00:14:08] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:14:08] Speaker B: They were not doing a full EFA sf.
[00:14:10] Speaker A: Okay, okay.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: And they were wrapped up in litigation and they have. They have acknowledged that. They acknowledged it in 20. Early 2022, when they released what they. Their work plan of how they were going to do that.
[00:14:26] Speaker A: Out here on the Texas Plains, water is everything. And there's a resource that's as vital as it is fragile. Our Playa Lakes. These lakes are nature's reservoir, catching rainwater to recharge our aquifer and provide lifelines for wildlife.
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Whether it's improving soil health, restoring habitats, or recharging groundwater, we are committed to making a difference. Together, we can build a legacy that we can all be proud of. To learn how you can join in, visit the Playa Lakes Restoration Initiative page on the SARAH website.
Let's keep Texas water flowing strong for the future. Visit sarah conservation.com how does that start happening? Like, do you have, like, individuals within this organization that are like, hey, give me a little and I'll skew. Scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Or is it just like, we don't have time?
[00:15:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's a time issue. So there's a lot of. So there is a backlog of pesticide. Regular registrations. Pesticides have to go through what's called registration review every 15 years. So not only have new products being registered.
[00:16:05] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: We have new uses of older products, older chemistry. So you've got this moving sort of wheel of things coming in.
So new products, new active ingredients, new uses. But then you also have registration review.
So every 15 years, all of these products have to go through. Through on a rolling scale.
It was not that. It was. So if you look at. Back at those older documents. Yeah, it wasn't that it was excluded. It was just, we'll do it later.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:16:38] Speaker B: And they were doing it later.
[00:16:40] Speaker A: Right.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: But yeah, it didn't, you know, just became more behind.
[00:16:45] Speaker A: Yes, okay. Yes. No, it makes sense. It's like, well, we'll go ahead and release this while we're working on this part.
Yes, but this part is we're so far behind. Yeah.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: Yes. And it wasn't that there weren't mitigations on the labels for non target. Right. So endangered species are also considered non target. Right. So, you know, that would be anything that's outside of what you're trying to control. So let's say you have a pigweed concern. The plant that you're trying to kill with your herbicide is pigweed.
[00:17:15] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:16] Speaker B: So you don't want it to move off your field. So anything that you're not, that's not part of that intent, that is considered non target. So that's going to include federally listed species.
So they were still included.
[00:17:30] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: Gone through the process of doing an evaluation of species.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: Okay, okay, okay. All right.
They're saying you can't, you can't also, you can't hit any of these species, however, we don't really know how it'll impact them.
[00:17:49] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:49] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. So it could be. I mean, they're assuming it's going to be bad, but it could actually turn out to be like, oh, it doesn't impact X, Y or Z, but it does negatively impact all these other things.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's, it's all we always talk about the potential for. Right.
It isn't always, I mean, like anything, it isn't always a known. Right. And so especially with pesticide use, which is not, it's not everywhere all the time. Right. So it's the potential for. Not the actual.
[00:18:21] Speaker A: Yes, right. Okay, interesting. Well, you know, we have here a. We've had an issue with voltization of dicamba that, you know, sprayed and then collects in the atmosphere and kind of comes down. So it is an interesting. I mean, it's created a lot of social tension, you know, in our small communities. Not just the economics, but it's been a really sad thing to see some of the response to the damage that's been done, you know, so that's really kind of what, what you're trying to do, though, is to prevent something that from getting on the market without it being labeled exactly how to apply it. So that doesn't go off target.
But what happens if you can't keep it from going off target? What happens then, like, if you find that, like, okay, you can't keep this from. There's no way to use this in a way that it isn't going to actually go off target.
Is that even something that you've ever even seen or heard of?
[00:19:29] Speaker B: No, I think that up to this point there's been ways to mitigate that. Right. Like, you know, if you read the Dicamba labels, they. They all said, you know, they address that.
Right. There is the. And I know a lot of states had their own regulations around.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: Yes, yeah.
[00:19:49] Speaker B: When you use it, when you could not use it.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:19:52] Speaker B: And so there are, you know, there are that next level of state regulations it could be in addition to those federal labels.
[00:19:59] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: And so we did see that. Okay. But I think, you know, there's a lot of different ways we know that pest is. So in EPA's work plan related to ESA, they started looking at routes of exposure. Right. So whether that was through runoff and erosion, so coming off your field in water, sediment. So they could attach that or through drip, which is what you're talking about. So through drip. So those were the two main ways that they started looking at in their strategies that they put together to address esa. So over the last three years, EPA has released the Vulnerable Species Action Plan, they've released the herbicide strategy, they released an insecticide strategy, and they released a rodenticide strategy. And in those strategies, they lay out how they're going to address the potential for impacts to endangered species.
And so we started seeing those rolled. They started. They finalized those strategies, and we've seen them start to roll those out on different labels. The first one was Glu, Phosphonate P or Liberty Ultra. It's a BASF product. That one went through the herbicide strategy.
And then there have been. There's been another one insecticide that's been released and still in draft form, it's not finalized.
That's a new active ingredient that came out under the insecticide strategy. So we, you know, we know how pesticides move off the landscape. And the easiest way to do is to mitigate those. Right. So for runoff and erosion, it's no different than what you would do for runoff and erosion, say, if you're trying to minimize the amount of sediment that's getting into your waterway. It's the same practices. Right. Cover crops, conservation, tillage, grass, waterways, filter strips, irrigation water management. So there's all these conservation practices or mitigation measures, as EPA calls them, that a lot of growers are really familiar with.
[00:21:57] Speaker A: Right. And are already doing anyway.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: Doing them anyway. And that's really helping the use of those good conservation measures are actually reducing the potential for that exposure through those routes of exposure. Right. So spray drift is another example. A Lot of growers have moved to using, you know, different nozzle sizes, different droplet sizes. They drop their booms so that it's lower and closer to the ground.
And there's a lot of labels that already had infilled buffers. Right. So you had to step back off whatever that is you're trying to protect. You're gonna. Those were already on there. So there's a number of ways that you can mitigate that potential risk.
And the people registering pesticides were already including those on their label. It's just how it was evaluated and just a different conversation in that space of how we talk about limiting that potential for exposure.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
So, you know, I know people are concerned. There's people concerned on both sides about the make America healthy again stuff. And some people are excited about the potential for the no longer using glyphosate.
And.
And then there's farmers who are like Dino. And for people that might not understand like the increase in like say tillage, like if you're having to, you don't have something to fight a chemical to fight weeds, well then you're going to plow more. And that means an increase in greenhouse gas. So like for people to understand like there's, there's always going to be a give and a take. And so if we look at what is going to do the least amount, what's going to have the least amount of impact, in many cases it will be a chemical rather than something else.
And I think if you could speak to that for a minute, that would be helpful.
[00:23:56] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think that as an economist, I'll come at this from an economics perspective.
There's always trade offs. Right. And so I think that we have to look at what those trade offs look, look like. Right. So for example, I'll use my own family as an example. So we use no till and we use cover crops and we also grow a third crop, I mean a second crop. So we're double croppers. Right. So in the Southeast we can. Texas, you can double crop. So we are double croppers. So we always have something growing on our fields. That's one of the ways that we manage weeds. So I think it's a com. You know, growers have recognized that using products is also expensive. Right. So nobody's to going, going out there and wasting their products.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: Exactly right.
[00:24:38] Speaker B: They're expensive. Every trip across their field is money and it's also time. And that's one of the things that grow. A lot of growers are limited by especially those who work Two jobs, right. Who work on their farm and off their farm, there is the risk with increase. Without herbicides you would have to go back to increased tillage, which is what you mentioned. And that the does, it's not just about the greenhouse gas and the use of the fuel and the heavy tractors and the moldboard plow, but it's also the erosion. Right. And so losing that topsoil. And so when you're, when your ground, ground is bare, you all of a sudden it's going to move, right?
[00:25:16] Speaker A: Oh yeah. I mean if people don't know that around here, I don't know how.
[00:25:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
And so I think that it's some of my, you know, my previous life doing research in conservation systems where it was a combination. Right. Like we did work looking at, okay, can you use cover crops instead of using herbicides? Right. So can you control glyphosate resistant pigweed, which is something most growers are familiar with.
[00:25:42] Speaker A: Right.
[00:25:43] Speaker B: Can you use cover crops? It wasn't, yes, you can use cover crops, but you still, herbicides are still very important. Right. Like if you want to fully, fully control that, that weed. Herbicides are very important in that, in that, in that system.
[00:25:57] Speaker A: Right.
[00:25:58] Speaker B: And so I think that it has to be. This is me as a conservation, putting on my conservation hat.
I think there's ways that we can use our conservation measures along with good technology. Right. Which is what we have.
[00:26:12] Speaker A: Right.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: So along with good technology, conservation practices, there's a way to address those concerns like weeds that is good for that, where it's good for the environment. Right.
Minimizing Asian, but it's also optimizing what kind of product we're using.
[00:26:32] Speaker A: Right, right. And I think that's important like for people to understand is that like, you know, and I mean people are people. So not every farmer is like, not every farmer cares about the environment, but most of them do. But people are people, people are just people. And so, but what farmers do care about also is like the bottom line and they can't keep doing what they're doing if they can't make a living. And so, you know, the, the more tools that we take away from, from growers though, we have to remember that what we're putting at risk is our own food system at times. And so it's important for us to be really thoughtful about the disadvantages and the advantages of the pros and cons of a particular chemical, you know, and in which, I mean, everybody gets to make up their own mind. So this is just information 101 right. You know, but I think for the most part, a lot of folks either dislike the EPA or don't trust the epa. So. And it feels like either way, whether it's like everything else, everybody, we kind of make up our mind, and then we look for something that confirms what we actually already believe instead of the other way around. So it's really hard as just as a human, you know, to make sure that you're aware that you're not just looking for things that confirm what you already want to believe, you know? So a lot of times it feels like even now, it's like, well, if I believe it, then it's a fact.
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I guess you don't. You can't have a crystal ball, and I don't want to put you on the spot either, but, like, where do you think we're headed? Like, okay, so we went. It feels like I. I don't know what's happening, because it's like, you have an expectation that now we have a new administration and they're going to call some of this back, and then, whammo, now you have somebody that's in the administration saying, actually, we're gonna. We're gonna actually go the opposite way of where you thought we were going. And we're gonna not just go a little bit. We're gonna go a lot further.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: As a person who exists in the regulatory world, but also who exists in the former world. Right.
Provide information to my. You know, I work with my dad and my brother, and I think I see it from both perspectives of, like, what happens if we have a slowdown in products being registered. Right. And so. And that is, that can happen if you have a reduction in staff. When you have EPA being a little bit constrained. Right, right. On how they can work, then that means there is a consequence to growers and end users of all sorts. Right. Not just agriculture, but anybody needs. Right.
Whether that's pest control for your house or your yard.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Right.
[00:30:00] Speaker B: Or rodenticides for controlling rat populations, whatever that is.
New products have to come out. Right. Like as. Because that's right. You do get resistance issues. Right? There are resistance.
[00:30:13] Speaker A: No, that.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: And that.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: That's something else. When you were talking about resistant pigweed, like, for people to understand that plants, like living things, are making decisions weirdly enough.
And literally plants are going, oh, we got. We got a new enemy.
And season after season after season, they're evolving to become resistant, where. So now you can spray glyphate.
I always say it wrong across, you know, your pigweed. And pigweed's like, whatever.
[00:30:51] Speaker B: Yes, it reproduces very, very quickly.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: Yes, it does. It is. I will tell you, the only thing that I have seen that competes very well with pigweed and will outgrow it is hemp.
And I mean, I'm telling you, I have been out. I've seen, like, this one really tall pigweed out in the middle of the hemp field. And I was like, I'm gonna pull this up. It has almost no root system.
I could not. I mean, you know, when they get big, they can get like, you know, a huge stalk like this, and you pull it up and you're like, you can't pull it up. Cause the root system is so huge. But those. Boy, once that hemp gets established. You talk about weed control.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: I think that, you know, going back to your question about, like, what to expect, I think right now we're just waiting to see. I think that's where a lot of people, far as. Just kind of waiting to see where we go and then adjust as we need to.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: Yeah. So does it put your customers, like your clients in this weird limbo?
[00:31:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it does. And it puts people who just work in the industry, in the agricultural industry in general, it puts us in a lot of difficult position. Right. To not really know, you know, the whole thing that they have access to products that they need.
Registration, we always say registration by litigation is really not the best option. There provides no regulatory certainty for people who are trying to make decisions on how to produce our nation's fiber.
And so I think that.
I think there has to be regulatory certainty. And I feel like right now there is just a lot of uncertainty.
[00:32:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, so interesting to make that point because I was last week at a critical minerals law conference, and that is something that. A point that someone brought up was that, like, right now, you know, oil prices are suppressed. They're really, you know, pretty almost. They're not quite so low that people are going to quit drilling, but they're really low.
And part of that is due to the Fact of no one. When there's clear regulation, investors feel safe.
We know exactly what the law is and we follow it.
But when there's ambiguity, then investors, they are not comfortable investing in something that could change. And so there's kind of been this suppression of the oil and gas, which is, it's just so counterintuitive to what we think of would be happening, you know. So I think it's interesting because they did mention that this is happening in multiple, not just in the oil and gas industry, but across multiple industries because there's so much. We're not sure what's going to happen where.
[00:33:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that in agriculture is. And I'm guessing oil and gas is the same way. But agriculture is impacted by, you know, trade policy, right. So prices, because we have global markets and so how their products are marketed, their trade, what that looks like. And it's, there's downstream impacts, right. Because you, let's say you have corn, it may go into feed, which goes into cattle. Right. So all of our agriculture is really intertwined.
[00:34:05] Speaker A: It's all intertwined.
[00:34:06] Speaker B: So I think that it's, it's those and then how it impacts their input, the people who sell their inputs. Right. So if I'm a grower and I have to make decisions about what crop I'm going to grow or how many acres I'm going to grow, it has impacts throughout the rural community, whether that your cotton stands or your fertilizer dealers or your seed production facilities, it impacts everybody because agriculture is so intertwined with each other.
[00:34:34] Speaker A: It's really true. Just that whole, you know, rural ecosystem which is just you can't pull on one without pulling on the other. And yeah, that's, that's the truth of you. If we, if a farmer's going, I don't know if I'm going to have the tool I need to grow this crop, so I'm going to have to grow this crop instead. So I, I think people, really consumers, it's important for them one to be aware of the difficulty it is to make it through the process. You know that it is very stringent.
[00:35:01] Speaker B: Yes, it is.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: If something does make it through, it has been through, like you said, seven years of testing of how it's going to impact all of these different things.
Whether we have or don't have that tool will impact whether we have or don't have certain crops or even the price of those crops. So if you take away a tool that cuts the, you know, makes things, farmers can grow a crop more economically, would that really impacts the choices that they're going to make. And also the choices like what, how much money they're going to have at the end of the season, you know, to give bonuses, to pay bills, to buy a new vehicle if they need it, to do things that are. That, that spur the economy, especially in rural communities.
[00:35:48] Speaker B: Be true for crops where we produce, where the US Is the major producer of those crops. Right. So you see that a lot of your specialty crops, where we do produce a number of those crops that are used by people here. Right, right, right. Whether that's blueberries or apples or oranges for eating orange juice. Right. Like those are. All those specialty crops are grown in very specific regions of, of the country.
They're not grown everywhere. They're small acreages. So we're not just. I think a lot of people, when they think of agriculture, they think of corn and soybeans.
[00:36:23] Speaker A: Well, and that's a lot of it. I mean, it's, it's true. We're growing a lot of that.
[00:36:26] Speaker B: Yeah, a lot of acres of that. There's also the importance of our specialty crops.
Crops.
It's really, really important because we want to be able to produce those fresh fruits and vegetables in the United States.
[00:36:39] Speaker A: You know, we were, in fact, I just was interviewing someone on water. We were talking about, you know, she's excited to see some horticulture stuff coming up. Where we are, where people are growing some more vegetables to be, you know, locally sourced and that kind of stuff. And I think it's good for consumers to, to be aware. There's. We have a co, op, Brownfield Farmers Co. Op. You can find them on Instagram, Facebook, Brownfield Farmers Co Op. And they've been doing a really interesting series with, with their, with their farmers, talking about, you know, like, some people are organic and some people aren't organic. And they talk about, you know, this person is talking about how, how he uses chemical and how much chemical he's using and, and what would happen, you know, if he didn't have it.
And I, I think it's a, it's an interesting educational for people to listen to, and it's important for us to realize that we have to find a way to all work together.
And my mom used to tell me all the time growing up, my, your freedom ends where mine begins and vice versa. So we have to recognize that the things that we do impact each other, you know, and work together as a community. And it's, it is often very difficult. And these situations that have arisen in communities like mine have been very hard for longtime friends to figure out how to get past.
Past them. And I'm. I hope that we can, we can figure those things out socially. And that's something that epa, I don't think is something that they don't ever take into consideration, which is, I think probably going to have to be more and more something considered is like, what is this social impact of this.
People may, you know, be listening. And we, we interview a lot of people that are, are using different types of production methods where they aren't having to dep chemicals as much. And I know that people are asking, well, why doesn't everyone just do that?
You know, why can't. I mean, if so and so can do that, then why can't this other person do that? And I, I think you would probably have a good.
Give us just a little synopsis of why everybody doesn't do it exactly the same.
[00:38:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I think a lot of it is based off where you live. Right. So some of it is our pest pressure in the Southeast because we grow crops year round. We have very wet weather. It doesn't get very cold, so it doesn't kill the insects. Not like being in the upper Midwest maybe, where you have less insect pressure with a lot of insect pressure. We've had insects that have been very. I mean, there's a lot of people who remember the boll weevil. Right. And so the boll weevil was eradicated. Partially. Mostly eradicated. I think it's. But for the most part the boll weevil is eradicated.
And that was because of a pesticide. So I think that it depends on where you live. I think some of it depends on how many acres you farm. Right. And so how much labor you have available. So where you can't use products, you may be doing hand weeding and hoeing and all of those things. I will say, I think that there's a misconception that organic means they don't use pesticides. And that is not true.
[00:39:48] Speaker A: Right.
[00:39:48] Speaker B: There are pesticides that are allowed to be used in organic production. So I think that's a little bit of a misnomer.
[00:39:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:54] Speaker B: That. That organic production doesn't use any pesticides, but that's just not true.
[00:40:00] Speaker A: Right. Or there's. And everything's a chemical. I mean, I think it's important for us to remember that literally the world is made up of. Of chemical chemicals. Yeah. So everything is chemicals. So. Yeah, there's things that are available. I mean, there's, there's regulations behind that.
[00:40:14] Speaker B: Too, behind all of it? Yes. I mean, all of these are.
[00:40:17] Speaker A: They have to fit within certain boundaries of what, organic?
[00:40:22] Speaker B: I mean, yeah, so it's their biopesticides, there's all different kinds of products, but they're still all registered and regulated by epa. And so it doesn't matter if it's available as a organic certified product, a product that you can use in organic production through Omri or usda. There's a list.
And so. But the idea that there's none is just right.
[00:40:45] Speaker A: And, and I think also part of it is that, you know, we, it takes a long time to understand the consequences of some things. And so we're just now really recognizing how much life is in the soil, how much microbial life is there. And that's not listed on the endangered species list. So we haven't like, been looking at how does this chemical impact the microbial life of the soil. So as we get more evidence, some more science behind those things, are you thinking that that's something that will eventually be something that is looked at when a chemical is being registered?
[00:41:21] Speaker B: I don't know. I, I guess having come from the soil health world. Right.
I haven't really. I, I think I would have to think about how you would do that testing. Right. Like, what that would look like.
I just, I don't know. I guess I don't mind saying I.
[00:41:37] Speaker A: Don'T know because we, we know, we understand so little about that ecosystem. We don't really. I mean, I know I have a friend that is, she's a microbiologist, whatever, scientist, and she's like, I could spend my entire life researching one microbe and, and never fully comprehend its life cycle and what's impacting it and all these things. And there are literally billions of different kinds of life in, even in a teaspoon of soil. It's, it's. Or there should be anyway. We think that there should be. Right.
[00:42:16] Speaker B: And I think it's how all of how our production methods fit together. Right. So that is one of the struggles about agricultural research. Right. Is that, you know, we're dependent on the weather.
[00:42:28] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:42:28] Speaker B: You can have a research trial out there and have a great year, and then the next year you, how you do research, especially at the field level. So in the field it becomes difficult because you are at the mercy of the weather and whether or not you get enough rain or too much rain, whether or not it's really hot. So every year is different.
That's.
[00:42:53] Speaker A: Yes, it's so true.
And, and that's One of the things, you know, I've done some work in the hemp industry and, and there's so many people in the hemp industry that know nothing about anything that has to do with anything but hemp. And that's why you hear so many people say it can make 10,000. It's the only plant that can make 10,000 or 150,000 or 60,000 different things. Because they don't know that actually grain, sorghum, gum, sequesters, a lot of carbon and you can make other things out of it, you know, and. Oh, actually, yeah. You know, cotton actually has more cellulose, you know, so things like that people are just not aware of, you know, And I will tell people ag moves in decades.
[00:43:38] Speaker B: It does.
[00:43:38] Speaker A: It's decades. And until ag becomes interested in hemp as a commodity, it's, it's not going to go anywhere very fast.
[00:43:49] Speaker B: You know, I think, I think we, we've talked about this before. I think everything's dependent on markets, right? It is, it is.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: There's too many things that are. Yes, yeah.
[00:43:59] Speaker B: There's so many parts that go along with it. And I think that, you know, I think agriculture is very personal. Right. So a lot. Most of our farms.
[00:44:08] Speaker A: So true. Yes.
[00:44:10] Speaker B: Then it is perfect personal. And I think that, you know, growers do want to protect their soil. I mean, it's why my family started no tilling in the 80s. Like there is this drive to protect their soil because they understand the consequence if they don't. Right.
But they also understand that without technologies, whatever those look like from whether it's a new, the newest technology for a sprayer or the newest technology. Technology for a combine in this chemical technology, those are the things that help us produce enough.
[00:44:43] Speaker A: Right.
[00:44:43] Speaker B: To be able to feed not just people in the US but the world.
[00:44:48] Speaker A: Yes. So, and I think that you, you said something just in passing there that in the 80s, you know, you started doing no till. I think it's important for people to understand that some of the things, the production systems that they're hearing about now are not necessarily new.
[00:45:05] Speaker B: No.
[00:45:05] Speaker A: And that like a lot of farmers have tried them and maybe they have, they didn't have maybe some of the technology or some of the knowledge that we have now.
And so when they tried them in the past, they didn't work.
And I'm not saying that they wouldn't work now or they would work. I don't, I'm not going to speak for any everybody's blanket statement.
I, I'm just saying that, that to think that some of these new ideas are new is not necessarily the case and that that farmers have been aware of of some of this for a long time. And, and whether it fits or doesn't fit into their systems and, and I mean some people are just stubborn. Doesn't matter if it works or not. There's their granddad didn't do it. They're not going to do it.
[00:45:52] Speaker B: But that's just people.
[00:45:54] Speaker A: People.
[00:45:56] Speaker B: That's a standard thing. And you know, people are just people.
You always are going to have people who are.
Right. Always.
[00:46:03] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:46:03] Speaker B: But I think that, I think that because agriculture is very different depending on the region that you are in your country. Right. So agriculture in the Southeast is very different than agriculture Midwest. I've worked in both of those spaces. So we, you know, while we started doing no teal and cover crops earlier in the Southeast. So at Auburn University they have what's called the old rotation. It's the longest cover crop rotation I think maybe in the world. I don't. It's at least in the US and it's been like since the late 1800s they've been using what they call green manure. So we called it something different, but it's the same concept. And so it was out of necessity. Right. Because when you grow cotton year after year after year and you don't put anything back in the the soil, there is a consequence.
[00:46:49] Speaker A: There is, yes.
[00:46:49] Speaker B: We realized it a lot sooner here than other parts of the country. The adoption of COVID crops and no till right. Historically been higher in the Southeast because it was out of necessity.
[00:47:02] Speaker A: Right. And. And what people may not know is who somebody who contributed to not of that knowledge is George Washington Carver who said we have to have something else to grow on rotation and said peanuts are the thing.
[00:47:14] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:47:15] Speaker A: And peanuts also here where we are, they helped us with a horrible nematode problem that we had from cotton. So a nematode is also a biological little critter that lives in the soil and it will destroy your cotton crop. And we didn't have any way of fighting that at the time. And so rotation with.
With peanuts helps. So there's, you know, there's a lot of things that have happened but until you, until you know, you don't know, you know what I'm saying? Like so in the. And sometimes it just takes, it takes a while, you know, for. And I, I think that things will continually improve and change and, and maybe we're learning some negative impacts, environmental impacts of things that we've always used or maybe People are going to be surprised, surprised to know that maybe, you know, that the impact is not as, as much as they think. And then we'll see, you know, what, what happens. Like, you know, you're not on that FDA side, but what they're looking at is that residue, what is that residue of those pesticides that are in our food. And for people to know there's literally limits for arsenic. You can have X amount of parts per million for arsenic. And um, you know, that's one of the reasons why we just recently our legislatures passed this ban. So you have zero detectable limits of THC and hemp. So which means that you can't grow hemp.
I mean people, you cannot grow hemp. If you find a variety that's genetically modified and there's no thc.
Okay.
But for now you can't, you can't grow something. You can't grow it.
[00:49:01] Speaker B: Wouldn't want that. Right. There's always, there's all these competing interests. And yes, I think, I guess it needs to be science based. We have to have the science. EPA depends on the science they have. They are, they provide the science. The registrants who are registering chemicals believe in the science. Right. Like they're, it's important.
[00:49:21] Speaker A: Right, right, right.
[00:49:23] Speaker B: Having a science based approach and, and really understanding the science. And all the people out there doing work, whether it's universities who are doing research on products and production methods, whether it's the government, whether it's private labs, whoever those people are doing, they're doing science based work. And that's really important.
[00:49:40] Speaker A: Well, and I think it too like using those third party labs, those labs don't want something to come back and bite them. I mean, hey, maybe it is an evil company and they don't care who they kill. They, they still have to make it through that third party lab. Who says I care?
[00:49:55] Speaker B: You know, that's a bad business model for anybody. Right. And so I think, you know, companies put so much money into developing products. They're not, it takes years and a lot of money and they put a lot of effort into it and they want it to get through the registration process and they want it to be able to go out and be used by growers to produce, produce the crops or use it on the fields or golf course or wherever it's being used. And so they're never going to make a decision that's going to actually make it so their product can't be sold. Right. Like that's not, that's not a good end game.
[00:50:29] Speaker A: Right. Like, right.
[00:50:30] Speaker B: And so I think that, I think that's a big part of it is they have, they have a, it is in their best interest to make sure that they're following the guidelines and having, and having this studies done and meeting the requirements of EPA and providing the information they need to the EPA to make sure that their products are registered because they've invested a lot of money in making sure that those products.
[00:50:57] Speaker A: Well, and I think it's just, it's important for, for us to remember that we got to not decide before we, before we know.
And it is really hard. I mean, I struggle with it a lot too and struggle with like, who do you listen to?
And I mean, there's a lot of loud voices out there. But what I find is like, there's also places all over the Internet that you can go to find peer reviewed research and you can go down and you can look at like the list of people who sponsored that research, you know, any type of, you know, conflict of interest that those researchers might have. And the Internet is like, if you don't believe that, then just go on the Internet, Internet and research the researcher and you will find a whole lot about them. So it takes a lot of time to do that, you know, but in, in the world that we live in, either you find someone that you trust that's doing that for you, or you do it yourself. Because to think on both sides, there's alternative voices, you know, and so we have to figure out how to cut through some of that and make good decisions. And we're not here to like, say this is what you should believe. We're here to say, hey, you know, this is just, this is just how this is working in the real world. Like, this is how it's working and this is the things that we're seeing and you're seeing something else, then bring that into the mix, you know, and making your decisions. But we want people to be informed. And this is an odd time for sure.
And there's a lot of the, a lot of things that we're not sure what's going to happen. But that's not the first time it's been that way for us, for everybody in the world. It's always, yeah, it's just. Yeah, that's exactly right. Exactly right. Well, Leah, thanks for joining us. Has been really, really interesting and very educational for me and I hope that our listeners have enjoyed it as well. I think it's really a unique, a unique conversation that most people might not actually hear about. So we're going to provide all your information in the show notes.
And if people have questions and stuff, they, it's okay if they reach out and say, yeah, but what about, there's.
[00:53:15] Speaker B: Always going to be. What about.
[00:53:17] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Exactly. So I appreciate your time and, and friends of Sarah, thanks for, for joining us for another edition of Conservation Stories. If you found this to be helpful, would you please share it and like, and maybe even review it. That does so, so much good for us and for the people that sponsor our podcast. So we look forward to another episode. We'll see you again. Friends.
